Building an Inclusive Culture, with Shaw Industries’ Mike Fromm

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SHRM thanks Gap International for sponsoring this episode of People and Strategy. As a trusted partner to global leaders for nearly half a century, Gap International works with organizations to deliver superior performance. Gap drives transformational change by focusing on mindset shifts and performance breakthroughs. Learn more about our longstanding partner at gapinternational.com. 

Mo Fathelbab:

Welcome to today's episode of People and Strategy. I'm your host, Mo Fathelbab, president of International Facilitators Organization. People and Strategy is a podcast from the SHRM Executive Network, the premier network of executives in the field of human resources. Each week we bring you in-depth conversations with the country's top HR executives and thought leaders. For today's conversation, I'm excited to be joined by Mike Fromm from Shaw Industries. He is the CHRO. Welcome, Mike.

Mike Fromm:

Thank you, Mo. Thanks for having me.

Mo Fathelbab:

Pleasure. How are you today?

Mike Fromm:

I'm doing well. Looking forward to the conversation.

Mo Fathelbab:

Well, likewise. So Mike, I've read a bit about what you guys have done at Shaw Industries. I've heard things like the company is the people and the people are the company. Say more about that, please.

Mike Fromm:

I think, I've shared many times that our internal culture is our external brand. I think we are a very people-centered organization. That we recognize the uniqueness that every individual brings, but we recognize that the power is when they come together and form teams and when they can work together and co-design outcomes, we're better for it. And so the focus and the intentionality and purposefulness of making sure our people are at the center is what gives us a competitive advantage.

Mo Fathelbab:

So I love that. And I want to start with how you define the culture and how you ensure that you keep that culture intact as you bring in new talent.

Mike Fromm:

So I think that's a great question. It's something that's hard. A lot of people want to say every individual defines their own culture. But we kind of make sure that our culture is centered around five basic principles. We want to make sure that every individual feels included. And what that means is that they feel valued, respected, and a sense of belonging that they're a part of something bigger than just themselves.

The second thing that we say is that we want to empower them. We've hired them to come into our organization. We want them to be their best. So we trust that they're going to use their skills, use their capability to improve things and make us better.

The third thing is they are accountable. We want people that are accountable to themselves, to their teams and to the organization to produce things that are better than what they got.

And then the fourth thing is we want authenticity. We want people to feel like they can be themselves and to share their honest perspective, to be true to who they are and true to the organization by telling us what they think and what they believe.

And then the last thing that we define our culture around is we want to make sure that we create an environment where people feel supported, where they can take some risk and really step out and try to make things better and unleash the greatness that's within themselves.

Mo Fathelbab:

Well, first I'm impressed with how you rattled all five of those off like that, boom, boom, boom.

Mike Fromm:

That's good.

Mo Fathelbab:

With sub-bullets as well.

Mike Fromm:

Yeah.

Mo Fathelbab:

That tells me that you're living this culture.

Mike Fromm:

That's what we're trying to do. We try to make sure that we walk the talk.

Mo Fathelbab:

Yeah. So let's talk about people feeling included, and you had a few elements to that. Maybe we could dig into that a little bit more because I think that is so important.

Mike Fromm:

Okay. I'm happy to.

Mo Fathelbab:

So tell us what it is, how do you know they feel included? Maybe we could go to that.

Mike Fromm:

I think that's a hard thing. Every person has their own experience and I think that's something that individually that we want to make sure that we connect with people. We talk about at Shaw, this relational excellence. How do we make sure that we feel a connection because people matter. So we have a process called PX, our performance experience, where we ask leaders to frequently check in with their associates and really just take a moment to connect, to really understand what's going on with them both personally and professionally. We believe that that creates an environment where trust is established, a relationship is formed. And when you get those two things, then people are more likely to share their honest opinions. So then the leader can share their honest perspective. And now you can co-create and co-design together to produce something better.

We want to create this thing where people feel this connection and feel like their voice matters and that they can bring their whole selves to work. That's how we try to be intentional to create that connection and that inclusion.

Mo Fathelbab:

Do you find ever that some people are just not willing to be as authentic as you would like? And if so, how do you deal with that?

Mike Fromm:

Yeah, I think that's a natural thing. I think there's a lot of fear. Fear of failure. Fear of a lack of acceptance. And so I think that generally is something that leaders have to work through, build just an honest relationship with them, with the individuals to really get to know them, really understand what makes them tick, what they're good at, what they aspire for, what motivates them. And as you get really deep into that relationship then trust is formed and you can break through some of that and people then bring their whole selves to work. They're more likely to be authentic.

Mo Fathelbab:

And what do you say to the doubters, those who say, no, business is business, what is this bringing your relationship and whole self to work? Because I still come across people who feel that way, and I just would love to have a good answer.

Mike Fromm:

Yeah, I think that's a great question. I think many people feel like you should separate work and life. But the reality, you can't separate it. And so for business leaders that talk about that, they fail to recognize many times that they bring their personal lives into work and it shows up in different ways, and it's part of who we are. And if we want people to come to work and be authentic and genuine and trust in us, then we have to be willing to open ourselves up by being vulnerable and showing that it's okay to be real.

And so I think the more we can talk through that and understand that everything that comes into work has an effect on the product, on whether you're going to be high performing or not, and you can't exclude when life happens. And so the more we can get people to truly become themselves by coming in and feeling comfortable and safe, there's no doubt in my mind that we get a better product as a result of that.

Mo Fathelbab:

Let's talk about that safety for a bit because that is something that I think is a prerequisite to vulnerability. So what do you do to ensure they feel safe?

Mike Fromm:

Yeah. Again, I think we talk a lot about that people matter and that we want our people to be their best. And the only way you can be your best is if you show up to work being true to who you are. And so I think what we continue to offer to people is we have plenty of resources to help people be their best by ensuring that if they're uncomfortable to talk through it with someone. We have networks. We have resource groups. We have lots of other forums for people to find their space, but yet really share their perspective so that it gets on the table so that then leaders can do something with it.

Mo Fathelbab:

Yeah. Something else you brought up is giving people the empowerment to do what they need to do, and I'm sure they're going to make mistakes along the way. How do you all respond when those mistakes are made? Because I know in some cultures you make a mistake and you're in big trouble, and that gets in the way of people taking risks and trying new things and being creative.

Mike Fromm:

Again, I think that's something that from a human nature perspective that most people go in expecting that if they fail that there's a problem. The reality is what we try to do is be a learning organization that we're just learning from our experiences. The things that we do is just more of a learning opportunity. And so I always say what's right or what's wrong, what success or failure really is depending on what you're trying to achieve. You could make 1,000 decisions that were better than the choice that you made, or 1,000 that would be worse. What is you made a decision and either got an outcome that was supportive of what you wanted or not.

And so I think some of us just have to put our guard down and recognize that just we're trying to learn through the way, we need to be more curious, ask better questions. But if you're not trying things, you're not moving forward. And we've got to be a catalyst for change, otherwise you'll get left behind. So we try to continue to encourage people to not look at what the outcome is per se or the result, but really look at the long-term view of what's possible.

Mo Fathelbab:

Yeah. So something else that's coming up for me is for as long as I've been doing this kind of work, this word vulnerability didn't really exist in the workplace. So from a personal perspective, for you, Mike, was there a moment when you saw that shift happen or were you always baked this way?

Mike Fromm:

So I'm not sure I'm the most vulnerable person. I think I like to say that I've probably demonstrated more humility. I think they go hand in hand. I don't mind acknowledging my shortcomings around my failures. What I do think is that leaders must recognize they don't have it all, and that the power of people coming together because we're all created uniquely and that if we can complement each other by surrounding ourselves with a healthy team, you get better results, you get better outcomes, you have higher performance. And everyone seems to be more energized by that.

Mo Fathelbab:

So how do you deal when there's a team member who isn't so much part of the culture but it's performing? So sometimes I see the superstar salesperson, but they just are not kind to a lot of people around them, and some companies hang on to these people. How do you all deal with that?

Mike Fromm:

So I think that's a great question, and I think everyone has to balance that out and decide how disruptive is it really to the organization. I think if someone does not align with your culture and they're working against it, there's not a place for them. They might be able to get the results, but if they cannot figure out how to work within the organization, because we do believe in being very collaborative and bringing people together, we're very team-focused, that if they can't find their place within the team, they can't stay. And we have plenty of examples where high performers just couldn't be part of our future.

Mo Fathelbab:

And do you think they get squeezed out by the team, by the leader, or they just feel like they don't belong and leave on their own?

Mike Fromm:

I think it's probably a combination of many things. I think sometimes the team pushes them out, they don't feel apart, and so then they get and decide to leave. Sometimes the organization or the leadership has to call it out through coaching and counseling and advising them of what the interference it creates by the person responding the way they do against our culture. The implications of that I think then causes the individual either to be held accountable. Like I always like to say, you either change or you change. So I think through many of those things.

But one thing I'd point out though, a lot of times we say a high performer doesn't fit the culture, but sometimes the high performer is actually demonstrating some of the things that the culture really does ask. For example, someone that questions or challenges or really pushes and wants more, some might be really put back by that and it can be off-putting, but the reality is they're trying to be authentic and share that there's a better way to do something, and we might reject that. I think culturally we like to be liked versus always being respected. And so we have to be careful that we don't just reject people because they push the organization. Again, high achievers don't tolerate mediocrity. And so I think we've got to figure out through many conversations what's really showing up and what do we do about that and how do we help the organization respond. We don't want to just reject people just because they're pushing the organization. We got to really understand what really is transpiring and how does that affect the overall organization.

Mo Fathelbab:

I want to just go back to your last answer when you mentioned humility. And I want to just first give you kudos because when I asked you what's the big win for Shaw Industries before the interview, what did you say?

Mike Fromm:

I said, our culture.

Mo Fathelbab:

Your culture. And what you didn't say is that Newsweek just said Shaw Industries is one of the great places to work in America. I might've said that first personally, but I think that speaks to your humility. But my question is what do you think has contributed to that being the case that Newsweek named you all in that way?

Mike Fromm:

I think obviously we're very people centered. We have tremendous people at our organization that really espouse similar values. They really care deeply about each other. They want to win in the marketplace. They care deeply about our communities. And so they're constantly trying to figure out how do we make things better? We're trying as an organization to really be focused on how do we create a better future for all.

Mo Fathelbab:

Yeah. Something else that is in debate these days is the concept of pay transparency. How do you guys handle that at Shaw Industries?

Mike Fromm:

Yeah, so we obviously align with all those states that require us to post our pay ranges and those kinds of things, just like most companies do. In those states that don't require it we have not been as forthcoming with that, there's reasons for that. We do post internally all of our ranges to our people so they know what their comp ratio is, where they fall based on their performance and their experience levels and skill sets. And we have an open dialogue around those things to help ensure that they feel that they're being valued and paid appropriately.

Mo Fathelbab:

Yeah, I love that. Something else you talked about was the transactional versus relational. I'm very fascinated by that subject. I'd love to hear your take on it.

Mike Fromm:

Okay. I think that too often, especially in our space in HR and business and just in general, leaders are really looking at the relationship from a transactional perspective. It's surface, they like the person they work with, the person. They think that there's respect, mutual respect because they have to interact. But they do it from a check the box, they recognize that it's a means to getting something done versus really getting deeper to really understand who is the individual, what are they really good at, what do they believe in, what do they aspire for, what really inspires them, and how do we then come together and work together to make sure that we produce something that we couldn't do by ourselves?

And so I really think too many organizations are so focused on checking the box, going through the steps, being compliant driven, being cost focused, versus what do you get when people come together? And yes, there's money being spent, but I look at that as investment. We're making an investment for something better. And so what do we get for the money we spend? And I believe you get that more when you have a relational experience versus a transactional experience.

Mo Fathelbab:

People feel like you care.

Mike Fromm:

People feel you care. They recognize that you see them, that they matter to you, and that they really are the value creators for the organization.

Mo Fathelbab:

Yeah. So you talked a bunch about how the leaders are vulnerable as they address their direct reports. What are you all doing as it relates to creating teams and building relationships amongst the teams? Not so much with the boss or the leader of the division.

Mike Fromm:

I mean, again, we have a lot of programs that encourages cross-functional interaction. We have our ARGs, our associate resource groups, that encourages people to come together. We recognize that the power is when people come together and have those true relationships. They can be vulnerable and share what they're experiencing and work and learn from each other how to be stronger. So I think those are things that we've put in place. There's lots of programs that just encourage people to come together.

Mo Fathelbab:

And today, as you look at Shaw Industries as CHRO, what are the big challenges or what's one big challenge that you think about that maybe keeps you up at night?

Mike Fromm:

I'll say two things that I think are critical. I think this thing, going back to culture, I think from a societal perspective, I think people just, there's a lot of distrust and concern for the wellbeing of themselves and their families. And I think we've got to continue, no different than any other organizations, how do you connect with your people? How do you make sure that you see them as an individual, as a key contributor, as someone that matters to you? And so putting resources in place to help them with their associate experience, I think is going to be vital to any organization's future success. So I think that's one.

And then two, I would say is what keeps me up is just making sure that we have the right leaders in place, that we have a healthy pipeline of leaders that understand what we're doing and what we're trying to accomplish, that have the right behaviors, have the right skills, the right experiences, so that they can produce the right outcomes for us, not only today, but in the future.

Mo Fathelbab:

So Mike, one of the areas of responsibility for you as CHRO at Shaw Industries is I&D. Can you speak to that and tell us what Shaw Industries philosophies are about that?

Mike Fromm:

Okay.

Mo Fathelbab:

Yeah.

Mike Fromm:

So I think our D&I philosophy, we've had it for a long time, we believe, again, back very foundationally that everyone matters and that everyone is unique and that the power is when we get to know them and we create this sense of belonging. So making sure that they feel that there's a place for them, that they can come be true to who they are so that they aren't fearful or wondering or hiding certain things that creates interference from them to being able to do their best work. So I think we are very consistent that we value the power of people, all people. We want to make sure that they find a place here and that they recognize that we truly do see them and understand that when they come and join our company, that we believe they're going to do something, some amazing things for us and really satisfy our customer and the marketplace with things that we couldn't see without them.

Mo Fathelbab:

I mean, that's a quotable right there. When somebody comes into our company, we believe they're going to do great things. I think that's wonderful. Yeah, yeah.

So you talked about culture a lot. I'm wondering every company's got a slightly or a very different culture in some cases. What elements of your culture would you insist upon should you go work somewhere else? I know you've been at Shaw for 30 years, is it?

Mike Fromm:

Yeah, 30 years.

Mo Fathelbab:

Yeah.

Mike Fromm:

Again, I don't think my principles would change too much, so I would have to be a part of an organization that believed that at the center of everything is the people. I share a lot of time with our leadership team, people in business are one and the same. You can't separate them. They are what make business happen. And so if you have a business challenge, you have a leadership opportunity. If you have a leadership challenge, you have a business opportunity. So I think whatever organization I went to would have to recognize that the people are the value creators, they are the power, and they will always be the power. And so if you don't get the best from your people, you're missing out on truly being one of the best companies around.

Mo Fathelbab:

Yeah. So tell us about your journey. I know you didn't start a CHRO of Shaw 30 years ago.

Mike Fromm:

So went to the University of South Carolina, graduated with a business degree, came out of school and taught and coached for about three years. After doing that for several years, decided to check out the industry. Was fortunate enough to get hired by Shaw. Started off in manufacturing, worked third shift as a manufacturing production supervisor. Did that for about a year. One of the best experiences I ever got, didn't really know much about the process, but knew that the people took care of me and that the people do know the work and really do make things happen. So if you took leadership away, the work will still get done. Our people are amazing group of individuals that rally around for the cause and deliver every day.

So did that for a year. Then moved into HR and have done a variety of roles over the, I guess, remaining 29 years. Six years ago was tapped on the shoulder to move into the head of HR for our organization. I've been very blessed and fortunate for that.

Mo Fathelbab:

Amazing. What a journey.

Mike Fromm:

Thank you.

Mo Fathelbab:

And what a company.

Mike Fromm:

Yeah.

Mo Fathelbab:

So I have some rapid fire questions for you.

Mike Fromm:

All right.

Mo Fathelbab:

And here we go. What's one word to describe your leadership style?

Mike Fromm:

Humility.

Mo Fathelbab:

If you could have any superpower, what would it be?

Mike Fromm:

That's a good one. To understand everyone automatically. To read their minds, I guess is the better way of framing it.

Mo Fathelbab:

I love that. If you could trade jobs for one day with anyone, who would it be?

Mike Fromm:

I'm not sure I want to trade jobs with anyone. I think I like my job. I guess I enjoy sports, and so if I could be just as skilled and do it for one day, I would guess I'd pick today, Scottie Scheffler. Enjoy golf and would like to be able to play in a way with his skill level.

Mo Fathelbab:

Amen. I just started [inaudible 00:24:27] golf a couple-

Mike Fromm:

Unfortunately, I'm not anywhere close.

Mo Fathelbab:

That's right.

Mike Fromm:

I'm not close to that.

Mo Fathelbab:

Thank you. If you could have one extra hour in your day, how would you spend it?

Mike Fromm:

With my family.

Mo Fathelbab:

The best answer. And after that, another hour?

Mike Fromm:

I think always trying to give back to the community, to those around, things that I believe in that I think that we're all called to do is to help others.

Mo Fathelbab:

Amazing. What does Shaw do in no way of helping others? I'm sure you have a lot of community initiatives.

Mike Fromm:

Yeah, so I think we are the leader for United Way in our communities, and we really set the pace for their campaign. We really encourage a lot of volunteerism within the organization, so we are proud of that. We are heavily involved with St. Jude. We raise probably, I think, more money for their marathon event, we have about 250, 300 runners that participate every year in that. I think the money that we raise is significantly higher than the second place. So we're very committed to those communities where we are at and those endeavors that really benefit others.

Mo Fathelbab:

Competitive, we were number one.

Mike Fromm:

Yeah. Yeah. We are competitive. We like to be competitive.

Mo Fathelbab:

I like it. What's the one piece of advice that was given to you that shaped your life the most? And this is my last question to you, so take your time.

Mike Fromm:

Okay. I mean, I think the advice that shaped me the most is from my parents. They instilled in all of us, I have four other siblings, that people matter and that we're to give back and to help others. I would say my dad, who was a physician, I always like to say that the five kids were all in service industry to help others. So I have some siblings that are teachers, some that are in the medical profession, and then obviously me from an HR perspective are always trying to help others find their place and be their best. So I think seeing that people are important and they matter, and that we're to help each other achieve the things that benefit our

Mo Fathelbab:

Communities. Well, it sounds like a wonderful place to work, and that's where we'll end it for this episode of People and Strategy. A huge thanks to Mike Fromm, CHRO, Shaw Industries. You can follow the People and Strategy podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Also, podcast reviews have a real impact on a podcast visibility. So if you enjoyed today's show, please leave a review to help others find it. Finally, you could find all our episodes at SHRM.org/podcasts. Thank you for listening, and have a great day.

SPONSOR MESSAGE:

SHRM thanks Gap International for sponsoring this episode of People and Strategy. Learn more about our longstanding partner at GapInternational.com.