Navigating Disruption, with Bob Rothman and Elizabeth Norberg

Mo Fathelbab:

Welcome to today's episode of People and Strategy. I'm your host, Mo Fathelbab, president of International Facilitators Organization. People and Strategy is a podcast from the SHRM Executive Network, the premier network of executives in the field of human resources. Each week, we bring you in-depth conversations with the country's top HR executives and thought leaders.

For today's conversation, we're recording live from the Visionaries Summit in Austin, Texas. I'm excited to be joined by Bob Rothman, president of Gap International, and Elizabeth Norberg, CHRO of SharkNinja. Welcome, Bob and Elizabeth.

Elizabeth Norberg:

Thank you.

Bob Rothman:

Good morning. Thank you.

Mo Fathelbab:

How are you guys today?

Elizabeth Norberg:

Really well.

Bob Rothman:

We're good. Thank you.

Mo Fathelbab:

Yeah. So today you all are presenting at the Visionaries Summit, and the topic is a very intriguing one to me. It is how SharkNinja's outrageously extraordinary culture sparks disruption. Tell us more about that.

Elizabeth Norberg:

So, first of all, thank you for having us today. We're very excited to be at the Visionaries Conference. SharkNinja is a very, very unique company and outrageously extraordinary. Those two words were very carefully selected because they illustrate how we think about things, not just exceeding expectations but driving in an outrageously extraordinary way.

The tagline would be accomplishing more than you ever thought possible. That's why we're partnered for a very long time with Bob and his organization on breakthrough thinking to get there.

Mo Fathelbab:

I love that. So let's talk a little bit more about each of your organizations so our audience can be a little bit more familiar with them. Bob, can we start with you? Tell us about Gap International.

Bob Rothman:

So Gap ... Well, actually thanks for having us as well. We love Visionaries and we love the SHRM organization. We love being a part of this, and it's great to be with you again.

Mo Fathelbab:

It's a pleasure to see you again, Bob.

Bob Rothman:

Yeah. So Gap International is a consulting company focused on driving superior performance. What's key about that for us is that for over 40 years, our central focus is mostly on how people think. What we found year after year after year, client after client after client is so many organizations almost get, I guess this may be a bad way to say it, stuck in how they think. It becomes normalized. It becomes their winning formula. It's very difficult to almost wrench people out of how they're currently thinking so that they can innovate, create, take their organizations to a different place. So much of our consulting, our diagnostic tools, our online programs are oriented around how to drive people to think differently, which usually leads to a different kind of performance.

Mo Fathelbab:

Beautiful. Elizabeth, tell us a little bit about SharkNinja.

Elizabeth Norberg:

SharkNinja is a very dynamic company. It's been around for about 30 years. The last 16 ... Actually, just the other day, we celebrated our CEO's sweet 16 with us as the CEO. So in the last 16 years, under the leadership of Mark Barrocas, our CEO, it is an innovative, tech-oriented, problem-solving, consumer problem-solving machine.

Mo Fathelbab:

Love that. Thank you. Let's talk about the alignment between the CEO and the CHRO. I'd like to know from you how you managed to make that alignment work.

Elizabeth Norberg:

So I think the alignment with our CEO is the most critical in understanding their expectations of the culture, very important, as well as where the business is going. I've been with SharkNinja, just celebrated my one year anniversary, and it was a key success factor for me. Mark and I have spent a lot of time together understanding the history, understanding why we are where we are and the success that the company has enjoyed for the last 16 years, and what the hopes and dreams are for the future.

We're very centered around our culture and our mindset, and understanding that at a deeper and more personal level was really important. How we think, how we feel, how do we motivate our employees, but in a very genuine way, focused around our consumer, that requires a lot of time, great listening, and patience. And so, we've spent a lot of time aligning and where we can amplify that great history.

Mo Fathelbab:

Speaking of aligning, how did you align yourself with the executive team?

Elizabeth Norberg:

Also a very critical part of our success. For me, this is not my first executive team, and I really understand the importance of that partnership. We wear two hats. You're their partner and you're their CHRO. So for me, building relationships with them was critical.

I've spent a lot of time with my executive team, and we have hired some new ones. So we've got a blend of those who've been there for a while and those who are new. So understanding them, their organizations, their expectations, and successes they've had in the future and how do we learn from them. So we've got a really terrific, dynamic executive team as well.

Mo Fathelbab:

So this question is for both of you. I'll start with you, Bob. What challenges do CHROs face as they immerse themselves into organizations?

Bob Rothman:

It's funny. On Monday, I was with an executive team and a CHRO who'd been there for a few years. It's a fairly big company. One of the things that she was sharing about is she comes from successful organizations just like you. So this is not her first dance.

What she brought to the company was all of her expertise and all of her knowing and all of how she got the job because she won the job versus other people she was competing against. So they had faith in her. Obviously they're hiring her on her strengths.

So she then brings all those strengths to this company, and then hits wall after wall after wall because those strengths that she brings are her strengths, but those strengths don't fit very nicely into this culture, this environment.

So I think one of the biggest challenges a new CHRO is dealing with is how do you take things that you're great at that earn you the role and earn you the decision to hire you into this company? How do you assimilate all of your strengths and almost in a sense know everything and not know anything, so that you can take some that is great from the past, maybe invent things that you haven't done yet, but ultimately assimilate?

I think assimilation is probably the biggest challenge, because if you think about it, you're trying to prove yourself. You're getting to know people. You're understanding the organization. You're comparing it to everything that you've done in the past and how it all fits together. So on the surface, it just looks like people walk in, "Oh, I was hired and now I'm taking over," but I think it's a very big machine that's working inside, trying to figure all this stuff out.

Elizabeth Norberg:

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mo Fathelbab:

Yeah, makes sense. Elizabeth?

Elizabeth Norberg:

Yeah. Well said and a really excellent point. This is my eighth industry, seventh CEO, and fourth founder. I tell Bob and I tell others all the time, I take all that experience and put it in my pocket, because one of the greatest challenges CHROs have is keeping that edge of learning. You have to be, in my opinion, a business leader who brings our toolbox of people strategies, human capital, culture all together. And so, we are there to power and enable an organization.

Too many times we get caught up in the HR stuff that has to happen, and it's really important things, but we have to rise above that and understand that we are responsible for helping the people and the organization be successful. If you keep that at the forefront as your north star, everything else is rounding.

Mo Fathelbab:

Elizabeth, what do you think is the source of SharkNinja's success?

Elizabeth Norberg:

So I'll tell you as a student of SharkNinja, I have learned the mindset and culture is the success. Our CEO talks to analysts all the time, and he says every time he mentions that, he gets this puzzled look. I can see why, because it, to some, may seem squishy and what does that mean? But for us, it's our competitive advantage. It's our people coming together how they think breakthrough, how they drive innovation, but it is always and only very customer-centric.

So with that, it's why we've grown as much as we have. It's why we've had success for the last 16 years. We don't set easy goals. I've been in organizations where we said, "Oh, we'll do a stretch goal." SharkNinja doesn't know what stretch is. They only know breakthrough at a rapid speed. So it really comes through our people and our culture, how we work, the way we work, et cetera.

Mo Fathelbab:

What do you all think is the role of the CHRO in driving culture?

Bob Rothman:

I'm sorry, before you go to that question-

Mo Fathelbab:

Yeah?

Bob Rothman:

... if it's okay, there was one more thing that Elizabeth was saying that I was thinking about just to build. Is that okay that I-

Mo Fathelbab:

Yeah.

Bob Rothman:

Okay, because I think ... Because we've worked with SharkNinja for a long time, we don't have an appreciation of the culture, really, because we come in and we go out. Not even a lot, so very little. But we have a sense of the CEO and Elizabeth and the executive team and the leadership in general.

I think another piece to it is ... And the reason why I'm saying is I think it's so important for any company is that they stick to what they say. They're relentless about it. They're uncompromising ... In this case, they're uncompromising about the kind of company they want, the kind of results that they want, the kind of people they want, the kind of mindset that they want. They don't deviate from that.

I think because of that, what happens is people naturally start to line up and they start to follow and follow/lead. I think it's ... We don't talk about it, and maybe it's taken for granted, because ... Or you guys take it for granted because you're just fish in the water. But just this relentless, continuous, never leave the conversation, drumbeat always is happening I think is also key. I'm sorry, it all flew in my head as you were saying this. I'm like, "Oh, we have to say this."

Mo Fathelbab:

Beautiful.

Bob Rothman:

"We have to say this."

Mo Fathelbab:

You've got to say it. Thank you.

Bob Rothman:

Okay.

Mo Fathelbab:

Thank you.

Bob Rothman:

All right, now you have to ask the next question again.

Mo Fathelbab:

Yeah. So I'll ask the question again. What is the role of the CHRO in driving culture?

Elizabeth Norberg:

So there's a parable I heard the other day that I have to just share for a minute, because it just fits this so well. There's two fish swimming in the water and they come across a more wiser, older fish, and they have a small chat. Then the older fish drives by and says, "Enjoy the water." The two of them look at each other and are like, "What's water?"

I just love that and I thought that's us. If we said to someone, "How's your culture?" they would be like, "What's culture?" because it is just the way it is. So our challenge is in making sure that it isn't a thing. I worked at healthcare for almost five years, and we had a very wise chief nursing officer who said, "Elizabeth, employees don't want to know that they're a strategy. They don't want to know that they're an imperative. They want to know you care about them and their success and how it is for them."

It really stuck with me that that's what it is. Our challenge is to make sure it's not a thing on a piece of paper. It is a responsibility to them, to the organization, to our shareholders, to our board, and something we have to take very seriously. It's not just a thing.

Mo Fathelbab:

I love that.

Elizabeth Norberg:

Yeah.

Mo Fathelbab:

I love that. Thank you. Bob?

Bob Rothman:

The way I'd say it is, well, first of all, I think that in a lot of organizations, no less SharkNinja, although, again, I don't know, it feels like because you're the CHRO, you're labeled as the people person. That's your accountability, and you take care of them.

And so, I think it's important for the CHRO to know that, yes, they may have a function called people, but the ownership of the people, the ownership of the culture, the ownership of the dynamics that occur that either make good things happen or not doesn't just rest with the people person, the CHRO, it actually starting with the executive team has to own it. So perhaps the role of the CHRO is to own it functionally, but then the executive team to own the culture and provoke the proper alignment, like you were talking about, to make that happen.

So it's too often they're just, "Well, that's you and you do this, which means I do this." I don't think that flies. I think it has to be much more dimensional than just that.

Elizabeth Norberg:

I think you remind me that we may bear an expertise that we've developed, a CFO has an expertise, the chief operating officer has an expertise, but our roles is not to be the only ones doing that. It's to ensure that we are engaging and empowering all of the teams around us to lead people, not just the people leader.

Bob Rothman:

Right, exactly.

Elizabeth Norberg:

I think it's an excellent point.

Bob Rothman:

Yup.

Mo Fathelbab:

So I want to shift gears and talk about how Gap International and SharkNinja work together. Specifically, how has Gap International helped SharkNinja become the powerhouse that it is?

Elizabeth Norberg:

Shall I go first or do you want to go first?

Bob Rothman:

No, you keep going first. This-

Elizabeth Norberg:

Ladies first? Okay.

Bob Rothman:

Ladies ... Yeah.

Elizabeth Norberg:

Thank you.

Bob Rothman:

It's working this way.

Elizabeth Norberg:

So I am new to SharkNinja. I was a month in when they told me we had our next breakthrough intensive workshop. The first thing I said to Bob when I met him is, "Listen, I have been to a lot of really great workshops, and this leadership- "

Bob Rothman:

"This better be good."

Elizabeth Norberg:

"My bar is pretty high, Bob," and he said, "Trust me, it'll be fine." I'm like, "Yeah, I've heard that line, too." Everybody kept saying, "Oh, breakthrough. Ooh. Oh my gosh, this is ... " I go, "What is happening during this breakthrough?"

Day one, I was texting with our CEO, saying, "This is unbelievable. I've never seen anything like this." Day one. Our CEO comes in and opens the workshop and says, "You need to be present here. Put your phones aside. Don't worry about the things outside of this room. Really embrace this."

Day two, day three, day four, the workshop itself is so powerful. But what makes it incredible, and it's a longstanding partnership we've had with Gap International, is that it literally changes the way people think and how they act. Me and my new team, we have really been focusing on reinforcing those behaviors and that mindset, and allowing that and those concepts to amplify the great work that we're doing.

The embedding of that in how we work and the way we think has what's enabled SharkNinja to be so successful for so long. Definitely in the last year, we've seen a real increase in how people think about things. So it's a very, may I say, non-traditional set of learning, but it's about you as a leader, you as a employee, but largely about you as a human being and how you show up in the world. So super powerful. I did have to say uncle at the end. I was like, "Okay, you're right. This is one of the very, very best." Yeah.

Mo Fathelbab:

So what is an example of a shift in thinking that you saw happen?

Elizabeth Norberg:

Ah. There's several, but one is that it allows you to dig deep into why you think what you think and how that file got there. And so, when you understand the root cause of that, you can then start to apply that thinking to other parts of how you think and why you think, how the application of that file shows up for you.

In many cases, it holds you back, and it's sometimes subconscious. You don't even realize it. So once you start to work through the root of that hold back, if you will, you start to unlock greater potential. Then you can apply some of the methodology of things like business as usual thinking is just what we do. We have to be thinking the unthinkable, outrageously extraordinary for us.

You have to make sure you're well aware of where crisis might happen and take the necessary steps, actions, whatever those might be, to don't go to crisis, get to thinking unthinkable, and then that becomes business as usual. Then how do you keep thinking the unthinkable? It's a constant cycle.

So many companies, and I've been in those companies, when you get into some sort of crisis, you come out of there and you've got all these great ideas, and you're thinking, "Why did it take us to go through crisis to get there? Why didn't we think about those things? Or worse, we did and we didn't do them." And so, part of this concept is that constant edge and push to think the unthinkable don't put yourself or don't allow yourself to get in crisis. Really powerful.

Bob Rothman:

That's good.

Mo Fathelbab:

Thank you.

Bob Rothman:

Just on that note, so we were in a meeting yesterday and they were talking about root cause. But they were talking about root cause about a problem, but the problem kept perpetuating. But then if they got to the root cause, it wouldn't perpetuate.

So I think part of the problem of root cause is sometimes if you identify the wrong problem and try to root cause it, you do get to a root cause on a problem that isn't really the problem. Then the thing perpetuates.

So part of the magic is to actually identify the problem, which ... And I know you guys are problem-seekers. So identify the problem in a precise way and then you got magic. If you don't do it the right way, then it persists.

Elizabeth Norberg:

Yeah.

Bob Rothman:

Anyway. Sorry, that was-

Elizabeth Norberg:

Yeah, yeah, I think the other-

Bob Rothman:

You ask these questions and it opens doors.

Mo Fathelbab:

Good. Great answers. Thank you.

Elizabeth Norberg:

Yes, that's right. These are good ones. Yes. I think another really important concept and why SharkNinja continues to be so successful is that we are a very fast-paced, very dynamic, growth-oriented company. It's not for everybody, for sure.

There are concepts that you learn and breakthrough that you can put words to, that help you understand what might be happening in the environment around you. One of them is really simple, but really powerful, the words that you use. It's grounded in psychology that the words we use shape the way we think, or the way we think shape the words that we use, and it creates the environment around you.

So if you just think about your every day, if you wake up and you're like, "Oh my gosh, I've got this day. This is going to be hard. This is going to be terrible. I've got to work with that guy. I've got to do this," all of a sudden everything about you is in that negative place. But if you wake up and say, "I've got a real challenge ahead. I've got to make sure I've got the right people around me that are going to be smart and challenged, and we're going to tackle this together. We're realistic about what it is, but we're very focused on what can be, what could the impossible be, and how do we get there," then all of a sudden you're really motivated and you ...

You don't dismiss the challenge, you don't minimize it. You embrace it and figure out how to work your way through it. That's why we say that our mindset and culture is such a competitive advantage for us. Not that we don't have problems and challenges. Actually yesterday, with as successful as SharkNinja is, and it is very successful, we were contemplating what could the next crisis be. It's not about the geopolitical situation or the economic climate. It was what can happen right here in our own house. Let's think about our crisis before we get there and let's figure out what those solutions might be now.

I walked out of those discussions and I thought, "This is so SharkNinja." So you can take what you learn, apply it in a very simplistic way, and it can be a regular way in which you operate.

Mo Fathelbab:

But it's a beautiful mindset.

Elizabeth Norberg:

Yes.

Mo Fathelbab:

And so, everybody at SharkNinja thinks that way.

Elizabeth Norberg:

Yes, yes, and it's very realistic. It's grounded in practical, insightful, informative ways. And so, we're constantly challenging ourselves to do that.

Mo Fathelbab:

Love it.

Bob Rothman:

I think in terms of our relationship with SharkNinja, first of all, what's beautiful about us, we have a partnership. It's a partnership, like a real, genuine partnership. That's great because in a good partnership, you can yell at each other, you can work things out. I can be wrong, I could be right. You could be wrong, you can be right. It's almost like you become one.

Elizabeth Norberg:

That's right.

Bob Rothman:

And it's really like that.

Elizabeth Norberg:

That's right, or a family.

Bob Rothman:

Yeah. We don't work ... We've 10 days a year with SharkNinja. So we do not spend much time with this company. We provide them, they value, and we have it, and somehow we've blended together very nicely. We have this little chip called thinking that works for them, that we place in and we cultivate and they run with it.

So we have ... I think what makes the partnership great is we're all about this thinking chip, and they're all about how important it is for people to think in a specific way that expresses the way they express it, and it just works brilliantly. So it's really as simple as that. I mean ... And there's so much more to their success than just this little chip, but this chip's an important piece to their success.

Elizabeth Norberg:

You can see why when I first learned this, I was like, "What? What are you talking about?" Super powerful.

Mo Fathelbab:

That was about that chip?

Elizabeth Norberg:

Yeah, I was like, "The chip. Okay." It felt like-

Bob Rothman:

It was so funny. I have a picture when she's saying. The first time I met her, I was like, "Oh, wow, the new CHRO. I mean this is a very important relationship for Gap International." You can see she's very animated, always smiling, very bubbly human being-

Elizabeth Norberg:

That's true.

Bob Rothman:

... and, oh, this is going to be great. But I'm thinking about the next four days and how it's going to totally disrupt her thinking. She's smiling now. Is she going to be smiling when we leave?

Elizabeth Norberg:

Yeah, [inaudible 00:22:43].

Bob Rothman:

Thank God she kept smiling.

Elizabeth Norberg:

That's right. There was a few times I was like, "What is happening?"

Bob Rothman:

"What's going on here?" Right, right. Well, because what you're doing is you're asking somebody. You're asking somebody to take something that they truly believe in, that they have proven that they're right about, whether it's an opinion they have or something that they've tested that they've done, their success formula. You're asking them to study that success formula and step out of it, and not step out of it into something else, just step out of it. That's just an ...

I got an electric car. "Oh, this is great. I can't wait to get ... " As soon as I got in that electric car, I fell apart. I had no ... It was all good until I had to fill it up, because there's no place to fill it up.

Elizabeth Norberg:

[inaudible 00:23:27].

Bob Rothman:

When I took it to New York, my wife and I almost got a divorce because we couldn't find a place to fill it up, right?

Elizabeth Norberg:

Yeah.

Bob Rothman:

I thought this was all great until I'm actually in it, right?

Elizabeth Norberg:

Yeah.

Bob Rothman:

So everyone experiences disruption a little differently, but when you're driving, thinking on things that are really critical and important to people that are successful and you're creating that kind of disruption, that's not so easy. It's not easy. But when you find companies where they value the partnership that way, it's awesome. It's wonderful. So SharkNinja is a great partner for it.

Elizabeth Norberg:

I had the same thing with my electric car, too. I know we shared that story, like, wait, it's so nice, but how do I actually make it continue to go?

Bob Rothman:

Right, right. It's running low.

Elizabeth Norberg:

Yes.

Bob Rothman:

Where do I go?

Mo Fathelbab:

All right, so let's move on to our rapid fire questions.

Elizabeth Norberg:

Okay.

Mo Fathelbab:

Yeah. What was your first job and what's one word that describes what you took away from it? [inaudible 00:24:25].

Elizabeth Norberg:

My first job, I was a hostess at Round the Corner Restaurant in a mall. What did I take away? Oh, I had the best leader named Chris Faw. It was the hardest job I ever had. He was always pressing and challenging me. I took away ... Which I didn't know the word at the time. I took away resilience, that edge of learning and trying and doing. I thought I would see people, chit-chat for a little while, and that'd be it. He was like, "Oh, no, that's not the job." Yeah, I learned a lot.

Bob Rothman:

That's Elizabeth's version of one word.

Elizabeth Norberg:

Oh, yeah. Oh, it was one word? Oh, yeah.

Bob Rothman:

That was one word. Can't you tell?

Elizabeth Norberg:

It was one long word. That's right.

Bob Rothman:

Okay, so I-

Mo Fathelbab:

Let's see how you do, Bob.

Bob Rothman:

I mean I'm-

Elizabeth Norberg:

Come on, Bob. Come on, Bob. We've got to get an A.

Bob Rothman:

I'm going to [inaudible 00:25:09] good one word.

Elizabeth Norberg:

I've got an F [inaudible 00:25:10].

Bob Rothman:

I'm going to do the same thing. So I worked in a shoe store in Mount Kisco, New York called Heller Shoes. I knew nothing about it, but I guess I was really good with it, and-

Elizabeth Norberg:

I could see that.

Bob Rothman:

I was, I was, because I think what-

Elizabeth Norberg:

Is this your one word?

Bob Rothman:

Yes. I didn't care about selling shoes. I really didn't. I cared that if you put a smile on people's face and they really got what they wanted. You didn't try to shove shoes at people so that you get a commission. You just make people happy. I dug that. I dug that. So funny, this is off the one word, but so I was like the top salesman, and I only did it during college. And so, the guys who do it for a living, they'd always hate when I come in in the summertime because I took away their sales, because I ... But I was never ... But they're trying to sell shoes and I'm like, "Why do you do that? Just make people happy. Just give them what they want." So anyway ...

Elizabeth Norberg:

Yeah. That's great. That's great.

Mo Fathelbab:

So the one where it is that you took away from it?

Bob Rothman:

Happy.

Mo Fathelbab:

Happy. Thank you. Thank you.

Elizabeth Norberg:

Happy. Oh.

Bob Rothman:

Happy. How about that?

Elizabeth Norberg:

Joy's the theme lately. So you're right along there. There you go.

Bob Rothman:

Okay, there you go.

Mo Fathelbab:

All right, next question. If you could have any superpower, what would it be?

Elizabeth Norberg:

Is this a one-word answer also?

Mo Fathelbab:

No.

Elizabeth Norberg:

No? Okay, good. My superpower would be to be a multiplier, which is where you could spend more time with more people learning and doing. But the bang for the buck, so to speak, is not just one-to-one, but one-to-many.

Mo Fathelbab:

I love that.

Elizabeth Norberg:

Yeah.

Mo Fathelbab:

Bob?

Bob Rothman:

I think that because of what we do for a living, I mean because I'm just mired in an every day, the thing I find so much is people become victimized of their circumstance. They become victimized by it in some form or another. As opposed to being the owner or the author or the source of themselves and what they're doing, it's just so easy to just be compromised in some way because of something outside of yourself.

So I try to shape my superpower to liberate or be a part of how a person could liberate themselves so that they really are the source of their success. They're the owners of their success. They have their hands on their steering wheel and they're at choice about that. Maybe it's a little too technical, but that's-

Elizabeth Norberg:

The CEO of their life. Take control.

Bob Rothman:

That's perfect. The CEO of their life.

Elizabeth Norberg:

Mm-hmm.

Mo Fathelbab:

So many people don't get that.

Bob Rothman:

I guess not, and I understand why.

Elizabeth Norberg:

Yeah.

Bob Rothman:

I've certainly not been the CEO of my own life a billion times.

Mo Fathelbab:

Of course.

Bob Rothman:

But the difference between being the CEO of your life and not being the CEO of your life is profound. So you know.

Elizabeth Norberg:

That's right. That's right.

Mo Fathelbab:

Absolutely. Last question, what is one piece of advice that was given to you that has shaped you either personally or professionally?

Elizabeth Norberg:

I would say probably one that has had the most impact for me is embrace the discomfort. There are so many times in my growing up or in my early work time, even today as I exist, that there are failures and challenges and things you don't know, or things you know but maybe they're not the right solution. It's uncomfortable. You're expected ... I was raised in a place where you were expected to know. And so, that discomfort of working through things has been something I've had to really consciously embrace. 99% of the time, you come out much stronger on the other side.

Mo Fathelbab:

Love that. Thank you. Bob?

Bob Rothman:

I was told once by someone to take my eye off the scoreboard and put it on playing the game the best way. Work hard, focus on doing things right, do the best you can, make a difference, et cetera, et cetera. When the person said that, that made a lot of sense in my mind because I ... Stop looking up there and how am I doing and am I doing well and I'm not doing well, and put it down here and be with people and play full out and all that. Let that take care of itself. That stayed with me. It just has.

Mo Fathelbab:

Awesome. Thank you both. That's where we'll end it for this episode of People and Strategy. A huge thanks to Bob Rothman and Elizabeth Norberg for their time. You can follow People and Strategy wherever you get your podcasts. Also, podcast reviews have a huge impact on the podcast's visibility. So if you enjoyed today's episode, please give us a review to help others find the show. Finally, you could find all our episodes at shrm.org/podcasts. Thank you for listening and have a great day.