Balancing Risk and People: A CHRO’s Dual Role

Mo Fathelbab: Welcome to today's episode of People and Strategy. I'm your host, Mo Fathelbab, president of International Facilitators Organization, People and Strategy is a podcast from the SHRM Executive Network, the premier network of executives in the field of human resources. Each week, we bring you in-depth conversations with the country's top HR executives and thought leaders.

For today's conversation, I'm excited to be joined by Jinah Chernivec, CHRO, and Risk Officer of Goodwill Industries. Welcome, Jinah.

Jinah Chernivec: Thank you so much Mo. Happy to be here.

Mo Fathelbab: Great to have you with us. Jinah, I wanna start with the story of your career journey and what brought you to the field of hr.

Jinah Chernivec: Sure it's a little bit atypical. I started with a career aspiration to be a criminal psychologist. I really wanted to work in the. Federal system, maybe the FBI. That was kind of a lofty goal. And so I had an undergrad education in psychology. I went on to earn my master's degree in counseling psychology, and then I started a PhD program in clinical psychology. About six months into that program, I started to have a little bit of curiosity about what the business world was like and decided to take a leave of absence from my PhD program. I enrolled in an MBA program and I loved it, and so I, after a semester decided to withdraw from my PhD program and finish my MBA. So having an MBA and a psychology. Degree has been really helpful because when I got back into the work, the world of business, I really became drawn to the talent side of operations and of leadership, and that really kickstarted my career in hr.

Mo Fathelbab: I was about to ask how, the, training of in psychology is helping you in your role today.

Jinah Chernivec: It helps a lot. It, really trained me and taught me how to be an effective listener. through all the hours of counseling and therapy and learning how to be a therapist, really, Taught me how to be an active listener. Also, to be really clear in my communication and to engage and develop rapport with not only people that I work alongside, but people that report to me as well on the team. and then it also, of course, help me better understand what drives human behavior, what's the background to why we make the decisions we do, or why we behave the way we do. And as we know in human resources. That's really core to a lot of what we think about and what we respond to in the workplace.

Mo Fathelbab: What does drive human behavior?

Jinah Chernivec: Oh boy. How much time do we have? I think, you know, what I really learned is that it's people's past experiences and their lived experiences. That's really what drives human behavior and what they bring then into the workplace in terms of what they value. their commitments are, what expectations they have, and how they are able to effectively resolve conflict.

All of those things that we really try to impart upon employees and leaders in the workplace and help them get comfortable with really understanding how to be effective in responding to employee needs.

Mo Fathelbab: So to what extent do you focus on learning people's, original historical stories and how they came to be who they are?

Jinah Chernivec: For me as a leader and, I've been in the organization for almost 10 years now in my current role, and what's really important to me is for people that I work closely with or people that work on my team, is that I understand who they are as a whole person. great that they come in with an amazing set of skills and talents that's going to benefit the organization, but truly what helps me become a better leader for them is if I understand their lived experience. So knowing where they came from, knowing what drives them, knowing what challenges they've had, both at work and in their personal life as much as they're comfortable sharing, is really, I think, core to being a successful leader for myself.

Mo Fathelbab: I think that's beautiful. And what are some of your listening tips that we could learn from, because that is one of those things that I think is just super important.

Jinah Chernivec: Right. So really when I'm listening to somebody, I'm trying to actively listen, which is doing a lot of nodding and affirming so they know I am engaged. I do a lot of mental note taking of things I may wanna go back to because they may say something that sparks my interest or that. I'm curious about, and then more importantly, really intentionally not focusing on what I'm going to say next.

Trying to really be in the moment, which is hard because I think as leaders we wanna be prepared and we wanna show that we have all the answers. But what I've really learned is that being in the moment is much more authentic. And a lot of times, and actually probably most of the time, people are not coming to me for answers.

They really just want someone to listen and maybe bounce ideas off of.

Mo Fathelbab: So listening is not merely waiting for your turn to talk.

Jinah Chernivec: Correct.

Mo Fathelbab: No.

Jinah Chernivec: I could do it better in my personal life, but I really try hard in my work life to do that. Well,

Mo Fathelbab: I love that. So, Jinah, your title is also quite interesting to me. You're both CHRO and risk manager?

Jinah Chernivec: Risk officer, yes.

Mo Fathelbab: Risk Officer. So how is it that those two titles are combined? Tell us maybe, how that came to be.

Jinah Chernivec: Yeah, so it came to be probably within the first five years of my tenure at the organization. we are a retail organization, as you know, and a nonprofit social service organization. And in our retail side of the business, which is the largest part of our business, we have retail stores and like all other retailers, we have a number of safety and security issues. We need to be in tune with and strategically be proactive about responding and planning for in the workplace. So what came to be is our president and CEO really felt strongly that human resources needed to align closely with what we're doing in workplace safety and security, and decided to put all of that under the umbrella of HR. Safety, oftentimes is partnered or paired really closely with HR in terms of workers' comp and accident. Investigations and reduction. But what also is new is that on the security realm, we take very seriously how safe our employees can get to work, how safe they feel when they're at work, not only from an accident and injury standpoint, but just community safety and safety where they are. And then of course, when they're leaving our stores at the end of their workday, and many of our stores are located in communities that have some challenging safety and security issues. And we really wanted all of that to be under the umbrella of the entire employee experience at this organization.

Mo Fathelbab: So do you all invest heavily in, in physical security? Is that part of the safety process?

Jinah Chernivec: do in many of our stores because of where they're located or honestly because of some of the issues that happen in retail environments

among customers and even between customers and employees. We do have security that are at those stores.

Mo Fathelbab: Yeah. Wow. So Jinah, we're gonna get into all your volunteerism and all the boards that you serve on in a second, but, you sound quite busy. CHRO, risk officer, a volunteer board member. With your busy calendar as an executive, how do you take time for yourself as a leader and how do you zoom out and look at the big picture strategy for your company.

Jinah Chernivec: I am really fortunate that I have a talented team that works alongside me in our HR team, and they carry, I think. The bulk of the work and I, get the pleasure of, leading and guiding them, but really in my personal life to keep that, healthy alignment is I always prioritize my health and wellness.

So whether that means my mental health or my physical health, those are things that are not negotiable for me and I am not my best self for the team that I work with or the organization in which I'm leading. If. Those things are suffering at any given point in time. One might ebb and one might flow, but they aren't off the priority list ever.

Mo Fathelbab: I think that's so important. I, know so many people that are so focused on their careers that they just don't, don't take care of themselves. And, you know, if you think of the airlines and old adage, put your own oxygen mask on first before taking care of others. Why? Why do you think that's so hard to do for some folks?

Jinah Chernivec: I think especially in support functions like human resources, we are all about and motivated by helping people and there's never a shortage of needs in an organization and so I think it really is trying to establish that clear boundary so that you can, like you said, be there for others. through making sure you're stable yourself. And, just really feel strongly that we aren't showing up in the way that we need to if we're sacrificing those priorities for our own individual needs.

Mo Fathelbab: Yeah. Yeah, I think that's wonderful. So, a topic that you are passionate about is civic engagement and education. How did you get interested in this?

Jinah Chernivec: I was asked by my president and CEO to join a local. Civic engagement development program through our Chamber of Commerce, through the city of Minneapolis. And was a really amazing and impactful experience. It was about a nine month cohort we met every month and. The purpose of the program is to develop civically engaged leaders in the Minneapolis St.

Paul region by exposing us to all of the complex issues that our region is facing, from housing, to education, to healthcare, to. racism, you know, you name it. We, got exposed to all of it. We met with elected officials, we met with industry leaders. We went and did in-person tours of programs and where they're making an impact.

And it was eye-opening. And I've worked in the nonprofit industry in the Minneapolis St. Paul region for over 10 years. So learning more about what's happening in our community was really important to me, but also a surprise. Of how little I knew, and one of those areas of how little I was aware of was the education disparities that are occurring in the Minneapolis St.

Paul region. Our education day was hugely meaningful to me, not only because I'm a mom of two. Who, have had, you know, kids in the education system, the public education system, and I am very privileged. We live in a, an area of the Twin Cities where I've never had to worry about the quality of education my children were receiving, and it was eye-opening to see that's not common in many parts of our community. And the impact it has kind of a through line, through all sorts of different areas of someone's development. When education is when there's an inequity in education.

Mo Fathelbab: Say more about that. You said it's eye-opening and you said there's a huge inequity. Give us an example of what you've seen that really can highlight that for us.

Jinah Chernivec: I think it's things that I wouldn't even have thought of, like transportation. So if I'm a child that's living with a family that's working multiple jobs, starting really early in the morning, I can't have access to maybe a better school. Because I don't have access to getting there because if it's not public transportation that can get me there and my parents are working, I don't have that ability like many of our other children do in communities.

my own included that we wanted them to go to a better school. And so I have the luxury of being able to drive them there every day and get them home. And so even just, you know, being maybe kind of stuck where you are, but knowing there might be better opportunities and not being able get to them is, eyeopening. Not to mention just the racial disparities that we have and how that drives education and equity, and really I was focused on what can I do in terms of an urban school to become involved in, because I walked away from that education experience through that cohort, really wanting to make a difference. It's overwhelming because I can't fix an entire system, but I really wanted to look for way, that I could make an impact. so about a year later, a board opportunity came across my network and it was to be part of a founding board

of a charter school that was a diverse by design charter school that was going to open in St.

Paul. And we worked as a board alongside the executive director for three years to make that executive director's dream realized and open the, school that he had wanted to open.

Mo Fathelbab: That must be very gratifying.

Jinah Chernivec: Hugely gratifying and, through that experience I made a lot of great connections with educators in Minnesota and in the Minneapolis St. Paul region. And now I am at another charter school board in Minneapolis where I've been serving for the last couple of years. Also, a school that is diverse has. Many English as second language learners, from all across the twin cities, from various cultures, really there to get the education that they deserve and, need

Mo Fathelbab: So how many boards do you serve on?

Jinah Chernivec: too many probably one might ask. But, I am on, as I said, the charter school board. I'm also on the board of our local. Alpine Ski Development Clubs. So both of my girls have been downhill ski racers since they were five, which one might not think is possible living in the Midwest, but it is, and it's been a phenomenal opportunity for them. And then I'm also in the process of joining a community foundation board for the county in which I live.

Mo Fathelbab: So a question that comes up for me naturally here is, as you serve on so many boards, how does that apply to your work as CHRO? In what way do you benefit? In what way does your team benefit?

Jinah Chernivec: Great personally, I've benefited because for me working in the nonprofit space. I am here because I need to work for an organization that serves a strong mission in the community. I've, like I said, I've left and worked in corporate hr, also for organizations that have strong missions, but it's just a different direct tie to seeing the impact of changes that you can make in people's lives. And so for me, I really wanted to seek out volunteer opportunities. So that I'm not just getting fed through work, but I'm also getting fed through my personal life because as we know, work can feed you in different ways, but it can't meet all of our needs and it shouldn't in my mind. And so part of why I do volunteers, one, I want to give back, I think it's really important.

I learned more from giving back and serving than I'm sure the organizations of which I'm on, their boards are getting from me, to be quite

It's a super rewarding experience. The relationships I've made have connected me in the field of HR and beyond, people that I would normally not have had the opportunity to meet or network with. so it's been really rewarding. But as an HR leader for Goodwill, Easter Seals and Good, and, the, team at large, our HR team, I'm able to bring back what I see, what I learn, and get exposed to through all of these different opportunities. can help inform what our employees might be experiencing, what's important to them. Like I mentioned earlier, what their lived experience might be and how that impacts how they're bringing themselves to work every day.

Mo Fathelbab: So that might be counterintuitive. I, imagine a lot of people say, I don't have time to be on another board. I'm overwhelmed as it is. But you said that you get more than you give. Can you say more about that?

Jinah Chernivec: It is a time commitment for sure. and there are times I am, I look at my husband and I say, why? Why do I not learn how to say no? And, I think it, for me personally, You make time for what's important, and like I said earlier, I make time for my physical and mental health, and part of my mental health wellbeing is volunteering. And so, you know, maybe for somebody else that wouldn't be, maybe that would be too stressful. And I'm at a point in my life where my kids are older. I have a lot of flexibility in being in a hybrid work environment. I have a amazing team that works alongside me, and so I'm able to take on more of these opportunities when they come my way. I maybe couldn't have done this 10 years ago, but for me right now, where I'm at in my time and stage of life, it's a great opportunity to do that.

Mo Fathelbab: So you've referenced your amazing team a couple of times, and I would venture to guess you couldn't do all that you do if your team wasn't really. A strong team that was able to step up and do their part. How did you come to find such a great team and really give them the rope? Because I also think it speaks to your ability to delegate.

so how did you get to that point? Or were you always like that?

Jinah Chernivec: With the current team I have today, I'm really fortunate and, the two out of the three leaders on our team have been with me for eight, nine years. So, and like I said, I've been here for 10 years. I, have been really fortunate that they continue to. Want to work here, wanna work for the mission.

And we had a strategy meeting yesterday and one of them said to me, it's why I continue to be here. It's our mission, it's our work environment, it's how we value employees in our organization. And those are all core to our mission, vision, and value. So it's nothing new, but we really do live them. And I think that's why I've been so fortunate is when you work for an organization that's

serving its community and you see the impacts. Of how they're impacting individuals who might be disadvantaged or underserved. It really is rewarding. So on the days that are hard, like we have in hr, they can be rewarding because you get to see the fruits of our labor in a really different and unique way. Then you might not get to in other workplaces.

Mo Fathelbab: Yeah, and I would imagine all of this has a personal meaning for you. Can, you speak to that?

Jinah Chernivec: It does. I, am somebody who, like I said, I feel like I've had a very privileged upbringing and background. I am a woman. I am a woman of color. I have had many leadership opportunities afforded to me, and I really believe that. I need to show up in spaces where others maybe haven't had the same fortune, fortunate circumstances like I've had, and how I can not only hopefully inspire others to see that it is possible to reach your goals and to have opportunities, but also help open doors for people. And really, as I mentioned earlier. What I've learned through a lot of the experiences I had through either education or development or volunteerism, it's a lot of things boil down to lack of access for people and, so I'm really passionate about making sure that where I can make a difference to open access for people it, I can do that. Similar to our mission, which is

barriers. For people to work in independence, it's all about access and having those barriers, whatever that might be for an individual who's underserved or underemployed that we know when you become employed, so many doors open for people and it really aligns with my own personal values.

Mo Fathelbab: So I'm struck. You are clearly very empathetic and thoughtful and caring of others. Does that ever challenge you when you have to make hard decisions at work?

Jinah Chernivec: Absolutely. I think all the time am I making this decision with my head or with my heart? Do they have to be in conflict or. Are there times they can be in alignment? And I think as a leader, we really need to be aware of where we're making decisions from and is the context appropriate given the decision and what the circumstances are.

And there are many times I have to say to our team, to myself, I'm making this decision with my head because that's what the decision calls for, but my heart is saying something else and it's okay to acknowledge that.

Mo Fathelbab: Is it possible to find alignment between the two even during the midst of a tough decision?

Jinah Chernivec: I think it is. I don't think it's always possible, or at least I haven't found that it's a hundred percent all the time possible. But I have found times where it, is, and I think it's also how you look at the situation. Sometimes it may not be obvious how they can be in alignment, but if you really peel away. The complexity of the issue at hand, really hope to find where there's alignment in either, it's our mission, it's our vision, it's our core values. It's really, you know, something like boiling down to respect. So in a really, Basic example, it can be we may have to decide to end somebody's employment, which feels like that's not a heart driven decision. But what I really lean on is how do we do it? How do we treat the person in the process, both before, during, and after, and while they are not gonna be happy with the outcome and feel good about organization when they leave? Most likely, I really want them to at least feel they were treated with dignity and respect through the process.

So that's, a very basic example of how I try to align head and heart in those difficult situations.

Mo Fathelbab: I think that's a great example. back to your, being a board member, are there any memorable stories that, that you can share with us about something that you've learned from being on a board that has helped you in your job?

Jinah Chernivec: I think, you know, there's so many stories, but I think most memorable is when you see, for instance, the first day of school, of, the charter school that I mentioned, when kids are running in the door and parents finally feel like found our place for our child. traditional district schools didn't serve them well.

And so, you know, charter schools are really meant to serve where there's a need that maybe a traditional school can't. And so seeing kids engaged in learning, being able to walk through the school on a day that is a school day, and seeing how instruction and teacher commitment is alive every day is. A really meaningful thing for me as a board member and a volunteer.

It makes me realize don't know what I don't know, and I'm there to soak it up and to serve as a board member, to serve these teachers and students. That's really what I'm there to do, is to be a servant leader.

Mo Fathelbab: I love the servant leadership concept and the, I don't know what, I don't know, concept. I think too often we forget that.

Jinah Chernivec: Yes. I don't know hardly anything about education even after all these years of being on a board, but I'm learning every day and, that's what I think is the most exciting part of it.

Mo Fathelbab: So you must be a lifelong learner as well. What, are you reading these days or what book maybe

Jinah Chernivec: Oh boy.

Mo Fathelbab: has been memorable and inspirational for you?

Jinah Chernivec: I wish I could say I am reading Mo and I don't have time, but I do have a stack of books I want to read sitting right next to my bed. I am really just trying to carve time for my physical fitness right now. I have a lot of goals that I'm working on for travel this summer and when I'm actually traveling, I'll be able to set aside some time to read.

Mo Fathelbab: Yeah, I, you listen, I relate. I have more books that I haven't read than I do read. I certainly read, but more than I wanna get to. so something else, I know Goodwill hosts a lot of career fairs. how has this local outreach in the community helped your company, expand its talent pool?

Jinah Chernivec: We do, we actually just hosted our annual career fair. Last week we had over 30 employers who were seeking to hire underserved populations. Our, you know, our organization has. Nearly 20 career and training education programs for people who want to be a qualified job seeker. And so we grow because we have people come seeking that program development or skill development.

And then in turn, we're able to help fill a labor shortage within our community, through employer partners that want to hire people that are already trained, educated, and ready to go in many cases. So, you know, it's been a really successful partnership. That's really the bulk of the model what we do is we help people get to work and get placed in gainful jobs and careers. But in addition to that, we are a second chance employer. So not only do we host and participate in Second Chance job fairs, it is part of our mission to. To hire people that have a criminal background. We treat every single applicant that comes in with a one-to-one look at what is their background, what skills are they bringing, what job are they applying for.

So there is never a universal approach to just automatically disqualify people from working for us, and that has really also helped fil

Mo Fathelbab: I am curious and I love that, and I think it's admirable. I'm curious how that squares with your concerns for safety in the workplace.

Jinah Chernivec: Yes. Well, it is a really delicate balance. So as I said, we look at every individual on a case by case basis. It's an individualized assessment. There are people that do have to be disqualified depending on what's on their background and also what the job is. There might be some jobs where it isn't as much of a concern, depending on how public facing it is, or if they're working with participants that we serve. But it is really an individualized assessment, and I think that's what makes us stronger as an employer, is that we're not just unilaterally looking at someone on paper and saying, no. We take a look and, we assess the risk and we work really closely with our legal counsel on situations that aren't as black and white.

Mo Fathelbab: That's very helpful. Thank you. so Jinah, why is civic engagement and let me ask that again. So Jinah, why is civic engagement in education so important for CHROs?

Jinah Chernivec: I mentioned this a little bit earlier that I, for me personally, it's helped me become much more aware of how someone's lived experience impacts their work experience. And I think we don't really always understand what a lived experience can look like if we're not exposed to all the different. that we're in and what that means. And so for me, I might live in my bubble of my local community and I don't have a really good exposure to what's going on for most people on an everyday basis. So it's really opened my eyes to one, have an understanding, two, I can maybe influence change.

And so through our organization, because we're a nonprofit, we might be in a better position to influence change in small ways. Through our community than maybe others, but it really builds upon why people come to work. For nonprofits, especially one like ours, that mission is important. The local community is important, and I think when CHROs are volunteering and taking that back to their teams and their organizations, it not only can inspire volunteerism within the organization as well, but it shows we as leaders it that it matters to us what's happening. The world in our local community and what our employees are going home to and experiencing every day so that we can hopefully better address the needs they might have and how that's impacting their work experience.

Mo Fathelbab: Thank you for that. Last question, what is one piece of advice that has shaped your work or personal life?

Jinah Chernivec: The best advice I received early on in my career was from a leadership development program that said, you should look for a way. To move

10% outside of your comfort zone every day, at least one opportunity. And so I really took that to heart, where when there are times I absolutely don't wanna do something, I feel really unsure, not confident, I'll whisper to myself and I'll hear those voices 10%. And if it is in that 10%, most of the time it inspires me to just try. And there are a lot of things I've done and opportunities I've had because I tried to commit to that 10% rule.

Mo Fathelbab: One example.

Jinah Chernivec: Well, one example is running a marathon. I don't think I

Mo Fathelbab: Alright.

Jinah Chernivec: I would've done that. I mean, I've really carried it forward in my personal life too. but, you know, I didn't wanna do it. Nobody wanted to do it with me. I didn't wanna do it alone. And I just said, what's the worst that's gonna happen? And, I did it.

Mo Fathelbab: Congratulations, and that's where we'll end it for this episode of People and Strategy. A huge thanks to Jinah for your valuable insights. You can follow the People and Strategy podcast wherever you get your podcast. Also podcast reviews have a real impact on podcast visibility. So if you enjoyed today's episode, leave a review to help others find the show.

Finally, you could find all our episodes on our website at SHRM dot org slash podcasts. Thank you for listening and have a great day.